Manfred Weber: "Amnesty for terrorist crimes has not been seen in Europe, the EU has to act now"

Manfred Weber (Niederhatzkofen, Germany, 1972) has been president of the European People's Party (EPP) for a year and a half. He is "a proud Bavarian, a happy German and a convinced European" who took the position after many years at the head of the Popular Group in the European Parliament... and a month and a half after the arrival of Alberto Núñez Feijóo to the presidency of the Spanish PP.

Since then, their alliance has been forged on three axes: the coincidence in time, the fact that the EPP needed a victory in one of the Big Ones to get back on its feet -and Spain was the first opportunity-, and in the fact that this comeback came with the burden of the populist polarization that was already expanding throughout Europe.

Perhaps there is a fourth axis, but that is more for the center-right leaders' own consumption. In Western democracies the far right is seen worse than the far left, and that makes almost any political alliance anathema for the popular ones, while social democrats, like Pedro Sánchez, can agree whatever they want with whoever they want.

At the head of the People's Party, Weber has battled against populism of all stripes. Although he has never been reluctant to look to his right if it was necessary to govern, or to expand the bases of the EPP. On the one hand, drawing the "red lines" of "fundamental democratic values" and, on the other, not bowing to the accusations that came from outside.

Therefore, his very harsh speech against the re-elected Spanish president, his agreements with the radical left and, above all, with the Catalan and Basque independence movement, is not new. It comes from afar, as he already demonstrated a year and a half ago in EL ESPAÑOL.

Before moving on to the Q/R, the German politician chats amicably, on the other side of the telematic connection, in his little house in southern Bavaria. He asks about what is happening in Spain, to find out first-hand, beyond what his Spanish partners tell him. Feijóo's PP has won, but he lost. And Weber tries to take the human temperature that a Spanish citizen can provide of what is going on in this Madrid that has been burning every night in front of the PSOE headquarters for two weeks...

"I thank you for the message," he responds, addressing the journalist. "This confirms our ambition to be clear about the amnesty issue and the rule of law. We were very interested in an action by the Commission, at least, like that letter from Reynders to the Spanish authorities last week. The response was terrible! It is beyond standards. Now, it's time for the debate in Strasbourg, and to see what the next steps are. We spoke to the legal service yesterday about this... it's good to hear from someone like you that what's happening is really important."

Well, let's move on and get started, if you like, Mr. Weber. I have 15 or so questions, but we'll see where the conversation goes... Let's start with 'the topic'. Is there really a risk of bankruptcy of the rule of law in Spain? Is there a democratic regression?

Our assessment is based on what we see from civil society, from the judges, even from the Supreme Court statements. And they are worried! And that's why Europe must be worried about what is going on in Spain now.

Again, my assessment is not a party political perspective. I'm not judging as a politician about this. Rule of law must always be based on courts, on lawyers, independent people who are having the law as a base for their assessment. And they are clear, they are outspoken, they are extremely concerned. That is what is happening in Spain. And that's why Europe must have a look on what is going on. Europe must be concerned and must make a strong and fact-based assessment about the concrete decisions that are in front of them.

What has Manfred Weber lost in Spain. It is apparent that you are EPP leader and, therefore, an ally of Alberto Núñez Feijóo. But is there something else, political or personal, in this?

I am, as a politician, worried about who are the ones splitting up societies. You know, we are living in a world where we have so many challenges in front of us. We are at the eve of war and crisis. Moments like in Ukraine and in Israel are coming closer to Europe, they are happening to our neighbours. That's why we need to reunify our societies. We have to bring people together. And I see the opposite. That is what the politician Manfred Weber is worried about. That is what really is for me, a very dramatic development.

You said it, I'm a party political person. Having in mind that Núñez Feijóo was proposing a program for two years with limited capacity, with clear projects for bringing Spain one step further, for solving the most urgent problems for our citizens, for the Spaniards... He was proposing to work together! And I'm totally, totally shocked that Pedro Sánchez was not possible to do a grand coalition, to work together with democratic forces in the country. But he's obviously ready to work with those who are separatists. He wants to split up the country. Why not based on the Constitution? That is for me, a shock to see. That for socialists is easier to form such a government than to be ready, in this moment of time that Spaniards have voted for this parliament, to join the forces in the centre of the political landscape.

"Pedro Sánchez makes an agreement with Carles Puigdemont and not with Alberto Núñez Feijóo because he wants to divide the country, not unite it"

You Germans have formed a handful of great coalitions. You are proof that it is possible and it is good for the country.

You said it. So that should be the tradition. That should be the thinking of democrats. And let's be honest, the story behind is that Sánchez cares more about himself than about the country. He cares more about his personal ambitions to stay as prime minister than about bringing people together and reunifying the country, which was so urgent and needed at this moment of time. That's a reality.

Is it what is happening, here in Spain, in any way comparable with all the previous cases in other countries of the European Union?

We have in some countries the principle of amnesty, of a pardon law that is based in some of the Constitutions in the European countries. But I have no comparable case in mind! We have more than 1000 people getting this pardon. And we always must have the victims in mind. Behind every case, there is not only criminal activity based on the Spanish law, based on a judgement by an independent court. Behind all these, more than 1000 cases, there are always victims. People who suffered. People who died, as I learned, because terrorist cases are covered by this amnesty law. And this is an uncomparable example in the EU. And that's why, again, it has to be priorized on the European level.

I especially want to emphasize that, taking this into account, it is to be hoped that the judicial system will also be granted the opportunity to issue its judgment based on the Spanish Constitution. So we fully rely on the judicial system because, once again, the judges have expressed very outspoken that they are worried. What we have here it is the political class that is breaching the rule of law, not the judges.

You mentioned the cases of terrorism that are already covered by this draft law. Perhaps this is the way the European Union can intervene. Because if I'm not wrong, terrorism is not amnestiable under the European Union treaties.

Exactly! It's European-wide understood as a fundamental crime. That's why there is a legal base. But even without this, there is already the chance to make an assessment about what is happening in Spain. And because our new invented 'Rule of law Mechanism' in today's EU gives us the legal basis for doing so. Not only the base, but even the obligation, because it's our task, it's our role as European Union to make it clear that we are a union based on the basic principle on the rule of law.

If you allow me to say, we had in the last two years, on European level, several worrisome cases. The most critical one was, for sure, the development in Hungary and also in Poland in the previous years. So there, we faced problems. And and I have to be clear, my worry is that Spain is becoming the new Poland in this development, which means also less influence on European level. Because already during the Spanish presidency we saw a lack of capability in Spain to really contribute all the power of such a large country, of such an important economy for Europe. Bring all the potential of Spain to the European table. Due to internal events, to these types of debates, Spain is also losing credibility at the European level.

In any case, this autocratic drifting in Hungary has not been stopped by Brussels. And in Poland, we had to wait for the elections. What hope is there in the EU for "helping Spain", as the EPP has said?

Well, you refer to the correct example, and that is Poland. I am sure Sánchez will not survive for a long period of time in his office, because the government is extremely unstable. And finally, people will show up, because the survey polls give us a clear idea that more than two thirds of the people don't support this approach [the amnesty agreements].

Sanchez didn't told people before the elections the truth. And that's why people will not forget about this. He's a liar. He was promising things, but he is not delivering now, afterwards. And losing trust is the most dangerous thing for all politicians in a democracy. That's why I'm sure he will not survive for a long period of time...

...but he gathered a large majority in Parliament...

...yeah, but I mean, not only at the beginning of his term, but also all government decisions (budgetary, etc.) will be in the hands of extremists. And that is not sustainable for a country like Spain. That's why I'm sure he will not stay for long. And Alberto [Núñez Feijóo] is ready!

You sure? He won (the elections)... but he lost (the Presidency).

He showed leadership, because he also could have done things to get the government, and he refused to do so. He stuck, and he was clear, on his promises. He wants to bring Spain together. He wants to be a good leader for Spain, honest for Spain. And for him, the nation comes first, and his career, the party, is a second. And that is exactly the opposite what Sánchez is doing. That's why I'm sure that he has not a long term perspective.

Poland is probably a big case that we were worried about, and now we are worried about Spain. And history will repeat itself. A Democratic majority will vote for Feijóo and bring him in office, like the Poles did for Donald Tusk.

You're a German like Ursula von der Leyen, and you are a 'popular' like her, We could say that you are politically her boss. Have you already talked about the Spain issue, you and the president of the European Commission?

We have regular contact on all subjects and we also spoke about Spain. And I am happy that the Commission immediately reacted with the question that Mr. Reynders, the commissioner responsible, sent to Spain. So this is clear: Europe is worried. There is a worry in the message of this letter. So a there is a need to act. There is a need to ask questions.

And from a political point of view, the answer was a provocation to Europe, because the answer tells us that Sánchez has nothing to do with this law because it's based on party politics and on the on the talks on the parliament side. So obviously, we need a follow up on the content now, and what is happening concretely on this. Europe has a huge obligation, a huge responsibility now to make a serious assessment about what is happening in Spain, and then draw the conclusions based on the Rule of law Mechanism. So Spain is now a case for the rule of law mechanism.

Commissioner Reynders, as you said, has already expressed the Commission's "deep concern". There's a joke all too well known that the EU is always "deeply concerned" about this and that, but it never delivers. Well, you're concerned, great. What is it you, the EU, are going to do?

Well, the new 'Rule of law Mechanism' gives us a real power, it gave us a real leverage in the Polish case, as well as in the Hungarian case. We are cutting money, we are cutting European funds. In the Hungarian case, even traditional budget issues like agriculture and regional funds. It's now too early to make a very clear assessment in Spain, though. But the tools are there. Europe is not without tools. We can and we must act if the facts are clear.

What I am asking now is for the Commission to present a clear assessment of what is now on the table. What has been agreed now? And I am sure that, taking into account, once again, civil society, associations of judges and the statements of the Supreme Court, it is obvious that Europe must act. That's for me obvious, based on these facts. The commission must make a clear assessment.

This week ahead, there is a monographic debate in Strasbourg on the "Threat to rule of law as a consequence of the government agreement in Spain". The title really draws your attention! Do you really think that there is a breach in the rule of law in Spain?

There is a worry which is on the table and that's why the title is correct. We've formulated it in an unoffensive way. You know, for me, when on thursday I was sitting together with all of the group leaders, in the Conference of Presidents of the European Parliament, it was a surprise to see that The Left, the Greens and the Socialists didn't support the plan to hold a debate. At least to have a debate, at least to talk about this! Can you imagine the socialists, the Greens and The Left, they all refused to talk about this, at least on European level, to express our opinion? You can have different opinions in a democracy, but you must at least have the chance to talk about this.

And that is why I have to tell you that the socialists led by Iratxe García, the Greens and also The Left completely lost their credibility in defending the rule of law in Europe. If a party is not even willing to talk about this and have a debate in the European Parliament, given that millions of people are taking it to the streets and expressing their disappointment, their concerns, their anxieties... and their anger sometimes, about what's happening there, that is, to me, really a symbol that they lost all credibility on these issues.

Don't you think that you are already too late? 

My approach is to be fact-based. Just to give you one concrete point, you know. Already two weeks ago we had a mini plenary session in the European Parliament. Then, I was not asking for an immediate talk about this, because first I thought it would be more of value to give again to civil society and the judges a chance to express their opinion.

Based on news, we can have no discussions. So it's not about party politics. It's about how Europe has a responsibility to defend the rule of law. Now we need a debate! Thanks to the majority, we are having it next Wednesday. But this debate should be based on facts, on what the judges are telling us. That is what I want to see. Rule of law must be fact based. That's our approach of the EPP. I will give it a serious treatment, but obviously we have a big challenge in Spain.

"What worries me is that Spain is already on its way to being the new Poland... but that is a good example, it means that Sánchez will not last"

You are a German, like Udo Bullmann, who competes for leadership with Iratxe García for the socialist leadership. Do you trust that something will happen within the European Socialist family? Do you trust that they themselves will help?...

Well...

I think you don't.

The hope is very, very limited. Because finally, what I see in Spain is power first. Anything else, other considerations are second level priorities. Power first! That is what I see. And if you allow me to broaden the perspective, you also had the situation in Slovakia. The socialist party HLAS formed a government with the far-right Smer, but for today they remain members of the European Socialist Party. That's why I think all this is quite worrying, they can't distance themselves from Peter Pellegrini. And I see now also the Portuguese development there. Again, we have a corruption case, solid, too powerful, so that the Prime Minister immediately resigns. That means, obviously, there is something behind. Yo can tell! They found €78,000 in the office of the head of Cabinet of Costa. And that reminds me, also, on the 'Kylie case' in the European Parliament: there are only socialists who are involved!

So having this broader perspective in mind, socialists are in deep trouble. And again, such behaviour will also damage the credibility of socialists on European level. Also, in a way, I must say that I see internal problems among socialists. For example, for anyone who wanted to understand, Josep Borrell was quite frank, if I may say so... he and many senior socialists have shown, directly or indirectly, their disappointment in what Sánchez is doing. And that confirms to us that this is worrying and that Europe has to act.

You have already mentioned Iratxe García. What do you think of her negotiation with Carles Puigdemont, a fugitive from Spanish Justice, and against whom she worked to lift his immunity? What do you think of the S&D leader negotiating an agreement for the PSOE in an European Parliament office, under the large photograph of a ballot box from the illegal referendum?

Well, I would say it's not good that the premises of the European Parliament are misused for such kind of national debates. And the second thing is that obviously the Spanish leadership in the socialist group is sometimes very involved in national politics. I would not do so as a president. I would see my role as a European role. But it's up to the socialists to assess this further.

One of the derivatives of this amnesty law is the closure of any investigation here in Spain into the Russian connections of the independence 'procés'. What do you think about this?

Well, the arguments are on the table. That must be a key pillar for the European ongoing investigation. Having said this, and with this moment of history in mind, it's obvious that all links to Russia must be in the centre of the ongoing investigations from the European Commission. We cannot allow Russia to have any direct or indirect influence or impact on any kind of governmental decisions.

Do Moscow, Iran and other enemies of the Western democracies take advantage of the destabilation of Spain to weaken Europe?

We saw this already, in last Council meeting, that Sánchez, as the Council president,  was more the problem to find a common understanding on the Israel-Hamas conflict than to be the solution of this. And this was only driven by The Left in the new government. So to be in the hand of extreme positioning and extreme parties is a problem for the stability of this continent, especially now that Spain has such an important role to play on the European level. I think a lot of people were very much surprised about this behaviour from Sánchez, and obviously it was only driven by his egotism to come back as Prime Minister.

Maybe you are not aware of this, but in his investiture speech, last Wednesday in the Spanish parliament, he changed the European position about the Israel-Hamas issue. The European Council approved "humanitarian pauses", but he called for a "ceasefire". I spoke with officials of the Israeli embassy here in Spain, and they told me, 'we're not going to say anything, but we take note'.

That is a big dark shadow over the Spanish presidency. This behavior is really harming the credibility of the country on the European level. Yet another proof that Sanchez is only doing things for his personal ambitions and nothing for the country, nothing for Europe in this regard.

And let me say that we must keep this in our memories as well. Not only the Israelians will remember it on the long run, you know, we must also know what is the true face of Pedro Sánchez.

What is the difference between 'humanitarian pauses' and 'ceasefire'?

On the broader perspective on this conflict, I think the decision we made as a European parliament was the right one: to underline the self-defence right of Israel and to not ask for a ceasefire, because that would immediately be the opposite of the self-defence right.

But secondly, to ask for the humanitarian pause that was agreed in the Parliament and then also in the Council side, that is exactly the balance we need. Europe is currently working hard for a humanitarian corridor from Cyprus to the Gaza Strip. And Ursula von der Leyen is travelling to Egypt to talk again with our friends there to find the solution on the humanitarian disaster which is going on. That is the balance we need. And having a socialist leader being held by extreme voices on the left side, and changing his position, the position of the country, the position of the European Council presidency is extremely harmful for European unity. It's not how a Council presidency acts.

You said we should take this into account. Pedro Sánchez is rumored to want to take Charles Michel's place as president of the European Council next year. Do you think that, given all this, he has a chance to do it?

No, I don't think so. He's not a bridge builder. He's not bringing things together. He was lying to the people of Spain. He's now breaching the rule of law. And that's why he cannot be one of the possible candidates for the European level.

A year and a half ago, you and I spoke in Brussels in another interview about the Sánchez Government's management of European money from the recovery fund. Has your impression improved in this regard?

Well, the judgement is an ongoing process. You know that on the RRF we are currently improving, there are also possibilities for the European Parliament to make a proper assessment on who the final beneficiaries are, and what is really going on. The worries are there, that this money was mainly pocket politically managed and used. And that's why there are a lot of questions about what Spain has not yet clarified.

Spain has been failing to inform the Commission for months now about the 100 largest beneficiaries of the NextGen funds. How can you force them? You, the European Union, the Commission, the Parliament? The deadline was several months ago, they extended it until September, now they say that it can be met until December... why doesn't the European Commission force Spain to report this?

First step is transparency. First step is we need clarity about the facts. And if the Commission is not ready to do so, then we can also consider to have another mission from the CONT committee, from the European Parliament's committee. You know, the Parliament is supposed to have a budgetary control and also has the right and the obligation to make the proper management about how the money is used. That's why our last meeting of the CONT committee, under the lead of Monika Hohlmeier, was a successful trip to Spain where we made it clear that we will have a look on this. And Sánchez must be certain that we will insist in this.

You know, the bigger question behind is not to make administration more difficult or to create beaurocracy. The key question is that these Recovery and Resilience Funds are still a great message of solidarity in Europe, that we are together finding an outcome after the economic impact of the Corona crisis. We did it together. And we can only continue with this great message of solidarity also in the future, if we can give people all over Europe the proof that the management of this sums of money is properly managed. That is why the Spanish authorities still need to address this, they have a lot of work to do to clarify this.

"Spain is already an obvious case for the EU Rule of Law Mechanism, and with Sánchez it has lost credibility within the EU"

So if I'm right, we have here two issues that can go together, European money and the drift of Spanish democracy. Is this what you think the EU's help for Spain would look like?

Well, again, Europe has tools to assert the rule of law. And having all this Spanish development in mind, rule of law is obviously not only a question of Eastern European countries, it's also a question for... let me call it the traditional EU countries, the old countries of the European Union. That's why Europe must be the guardian of the rule of law in Spain. That is what I am asking for, and what I think a lot of Spaniards are asking for. That is the main message of the day.

Are you saying that you do not trust Spanish democracy anymore?

Let me again compare Spain and the Portuguese development, because in Portugal, you know, we have a corruption scandal, but the rule of law is in place. We have a court system, we have an investigation, we have a prosecutor who are doing their job. So that is working. The question in Spain is even more worrisome because we speak about the fundamental basics behind. Whether the system is still in function.

And I know it was finally not included in the draft law. But the idea in the coalition text was to establish a committee in the Parliament. A committee to have an oversight and to watch what judges are doing and what courts are doing already. This formulation in the coalition text is unbelievable! Is unbelievable that this was happening. I think the party leader, I mean Sánchez, must give proper answers to European level. He cannot say, 'I have nothing to do with this because its Parliament'. No, he signed this agreement, he did the talks with Puigdemont finally on this. And that's why 'please give us a clarification'! How can you sign such a text? That's again, unbelievable. And that gives us an idea about the fundamental problem behind.

So it's not only a procedural problem, it's a case like the one in Portugal; it's a fundamental systemic problem which is now on the table, and therefore a subject of a deeper European investigation.

The 'lawfare' issue is not in the draft law, but in the political agreement. Last week, during the investiture debate, the spokeswoman of Junts, Míriam Nogueras, forced Pedro Sanchez to publicly promise once again to fulfil all what he had signed the week before. One of those commitments is to create parliamentary committees that question the work of judges in search of possible lawfare cases to expand the cases subject to the amnesty. That's going to happen here in Spain.

It's unbelievable. And again, having this in mind, the European activity is so urgently needed. It's a fundamental question on the table, and that's why we have to act immediately, now.

Okay, so we're done. But I can't hang up on you without one last question. What is the European People's Party going to do regarding the next European elections? Are you going to be the candidate? Are you going to be the Spitzenkandidat? Who is going to lead the lists of the European People's Party?

Well, in the last two and a half years, since I became party president in Rotterdam, we the EPP have won all elections, even in Spain. We have won 3 million additional votes...

...you are the great leader. So, are you going to be the leader here?

...we have 12 prime ministers and heads of State in our ranks. This is more than socialists and liberals together have at this moment of time. So that's why I'm very proud about. And there is a reason behind it. For me, our approach of being bridge builders, bringing things together between environmental responsibility and jobs, between social aspects and economy, between the data protection and using digital, and so on... is resonating, is accepted by the people. Especially at this moment of time when people feel so much uncertainty because of inflation, war, climate change...

So that is my personal assessment about what is needed for the future of Europe. That's why the EPP will be in the lead for the next five years for European level, hopefully also with a strong group in the European Parliament. And we have agreed that we are starting the process to finalise our leadership questions, especially the lead candidate, at the beginning of next year. In this moment we are proud to have Ursula von der Leyen and Roberta Metsola, two strong presidents of EU institutions, with us. And especially on the Commission side, we are fully respecting Ursula's decision, whether she wants to run again or not. If she did, she would be first in the race to be our leader, there is no doubt about that. But at this moment of time, we are waiting for her decision.